@frank @humanetech Ah, another big drawback about shared Peertube players is, that they don't support older browsers. One of my macs is on 10.9 (no higher than Firefox 78 possible).
At some point in 2021 Peertube stopped working on shared players with this machine. Surfing Peertube sites directly works, though. That is really useless tuff, that shouldn't be done to users.
Well if the browser don't get security updates anymore from mozilla it's only consequent IMHO.
@the_white_wolf @frank @humanetech
I see that differently. Youtube proves you wrong, too. I need no security udates for a peertube.
This happens, because devs use libraries they don't fully understand and refuse to keep backwards compatibility on top of their list in favor of pushing everything through half-tested, that looks new & cool. This is very unsustainaing & i consider it a hostile approach.
A few software companies such as Cockos (Reaper DAW) understood this and work differently.
@jayrope @the_white_wolf @frank
Tbh, I feel that developers are often blamed for a lot of things they should or should not do while they have a ballooning project under their hands. And they develop on a low budget or completely as volunteer. AFAIU #PeerTube has one dedicated developer that receives funding from Framagit and some active volunteer contributors.
The project has become large and complex in short time, and everyone is clamoring to add this feature or that to it. It's a tough job.
@humanetech @the_white_wolf @frank How can this be helped? donations? I am kind of sure there is a ton of qualified designers who'd help this, if in their free time. I'll try sthg in Greasemonky for a start.
@jayrope @the_white_wolf @frank
> wasn't meaning to disgrace this respectable work
And I was talking in general, and not inferring you were :)
This is a very tough problem that plagues free software development for a long time. I think part of the solution lies in enabling a deeper kind of participation for any person to #FOSS projects. Not only easing the onboarding of people with different skills, but having any fedizen on board, able to inform themself, understand tensions and decisions.
@humanetech @jayrope @the_white_wolf @frank@linuxrocks.online
re devs using libraries for... no good reason?
I just noticed during the #rc3 that the #jitsi client on F-droid is no longer supported on android < version 6. I can't even express in words how bad this feels on so many levels.
Forcing people to acquire new devices creates electronic junk, promotes exploitation of humans and limited physical resources.
@keith @humanetech @the_white_wolf @frank did #rc3 report on this as well?
@keith @jayrope @the_white_wolf @frank
Yeah, it sucks when these things happen. I don't know the Jitsi project, but they have quite a few repo's to maintain. With FOSS projects there's a higher likelihood there's a valid reason (other than monetary).
Most likely it is because of low-level libs no longer supporting android 6, and these maybe no longer do because of security vulnerabilities. Dunno. As __jayrope says reporting may be a good thing to do.
I don't think it is what you are saying, but my main thought here is always that I'm not convinced by the need for security updates outweighing supporting older hardware.
If anything, more secure software should be more lean, not more bloated + requiring more RAM and CPU. I think that a lot of extra (probably surveillance) crap is pushed out under the guise of "security" updates.
@keith @humanetech @jayrope it's not about no longer supporting hardware, though, it's about no longer supporting a version of Android that is old and no longer receives security support (which IMO is a big deal), and lacks certain APIs that newer versions do have. That's less work for the developers. Less variables to test their software against (which saves time). Not reinventing wheels (which saves development and bugs).
@doenietzomoeilijk @keith @humanetech My hardware only allows me Android 6 and i am too much of a non-nerd to attempt to install LineageOS or sthg else. In that regard that is supposedly a big issue for software devs, because people like me escape the software market altogether. When there is neither funds for new hardware nor more new hardware supporting repairability, battery change & such, we'll be lost for devs, that don't cater to our existing stable and long-life phones.
@jayrope @doenietzomoeilijk @humanetech
Something I do think about is some kind of Lineage (et al) install service. I'm no expert, but I believe that for a quality experience, the number of device models that this is possible on is quite small, especially in the more economic markets.
I'm all the time more and more convinced that we have created a mother of all problems with "phones", which is unfortunate, given my line of work. 😕 😞
@keith @doenietzomoeilijk @humanetech
https://e.foundation/ @e_mydata has an alternate OS for my 2014 phone, fully un-Googled and checking for tracking code when new apps are to be installed. Might be worth an in-depth look, I haven't installed this myself (yet, eventually).
@jayrope @keith @humanetech @e_mydata I'm running /e/ on a 2014 moto g, not my daily driver, though. But it's usable for what I want to do with it.
@doenietzomoeilijk @humanetech @jayrope
Not supporting older hardware is IMPLICIT in not supporting older Android. (I was about to write OS, but i'm really not sure "android" qualifies as an OS)
Tying security support to newer versions, i.e. newer hardware, while bundling new obligatory "functionality" is political, not technology related.
@keith @doenietzomoeilijk @humanetech The point about new obligatory functionality is very valid, i find. Software & hardware industry, #FOSS or other, is bound to grow by inventions, many of which simply try to tie me more to devices, that mostly promise to toast better, than my toaster (not on wifi, no voice control) - and then never get there.
This has turned a lot of people away from overly caring about devices, as long as they perform what they can as reliable & long-term as possible.
@jayrope @humanetech @the_white_wolf @frank@linuxrocks.online
So the commit message for the commit that denies access to the #jitsi app for Android versions lower than 6 is:
"android: bump minimum API level to 23
Android < 23 is currently less than 3% for us so let's try to lower the
maintenance burden. Users can still download an older version no problem."
I wonder where they get their stats from.
@keith @jayrope @humanetech @the_white_wolf @frank it seems that Android Studio gives you those stats, according to https://9to5google.com/2020/04/10/google-kills-android-distribution-numbers-web/.
@keith @humanetech @the_white_wolf @frank Keith, i sympathize with you, am on Android 6 myself, so i will be next to be dropped.
I want to broaden the case massively:
I've many friends in poorer countries who can't afford technology updates frcing thm nto OS or even hardware updates. They are basically left with what they got without any option to be taken care of later.
Technology development in Western/rich countries, especially #FOSS, should really keep this in mind and cater to them & us.
The problem that I do not know how to deal with is 3-fold
1st there is #android itself, the main problem - that illegitimate robot spawn of FOSS+capitalism.
2nd are the portable computing devices and the culture of feeling somehow incomplete as humans without them, calling them "phones", with their locked bootloaders, closed propriety chips and firmwares et al.
3rd, as @jayrope alluded to is the complexity and the many layers and frameworks that modern software is based on.
> The problem that I do not know how to deal with is 3-fold
Gradual, bit by bit, and with many people working on many different fronts.
Yea, it is a David vs. Goliath situation, but David won and so can we. As long as there's Progress, however small, there's hope. Without it, there's defeat. So we just grind on, slowly :)
There's progress in each of these 3 areas.
@keith
I chat a bit about the situation around Android & updates in this thread
https://sunbeam.city/@handle/107552785093298305
Also link to a posts in another thread with more
tldr- its about the resources available to do a good job of developing and maintaining hard & software. Android has big security & privacy improvements in the last years. Theres only so much app dev resources to put into supporting old Android versions, makes ever less sense as the OS hasnt had security updates for years. @humanetech @jayrope
@dazinism
Many thanks. I tried hard to avoid boosting the entire thread. 🙂
@humanetech @jayrope @the_white_wolf @frank@linuxrocks.online
There may be some kind of valid reason for the version bump, if I find time I might look at the commit log and see if it is documented.